Having won an Olympic gold medal and two Women’s World Cups, Megan Rapinoe is among the most decorated and world famous athletes of our time. She joins to talk about her legendary soccer career, activism, and New York Times Best-Selling book.
Debbie Millman:
Megan Rapinoe is a two-time World Cup champion and an Olympic gold medalist, to name just a few of her accomplishments. Her playmaking and craftiness on the field are legendary, but she’s also known for being one of the rare athletes of her stature to speak her mind about politics. In 2012, she came out as a lesbian when most gay athletes didn’t talk much about such things. In 2016, she took a knee during the national anthem at an international match in solidarity with football player Colin Kaepernick. And she’s been deeply involved in pay equity issues in soccer. Megan Rapinoe was also an author. Her memoir One Life was published in 2020 and instantly became a New York Times bestseller. She joins me today to talk about her life and her extraordinary career. Megan Rapinoe, welcome to Design Matters.
Megan Rapinoe:
Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely, Megan, I understand you do a phenomenal Jim Carrey imitation.
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh my gosh. Who told you that?
Debbie Millman:
Oh, I don’t know. I just was wondering if you might be willing to share that with us today.
Megan Rapinoe:
All righty then. I do love Jim Carrey so much. I actually have a slightly funny story. I was at the Super Bowl last year and you walk out, it was like droves of people. I don’t really geek out over celebrity at all. I always find it interesting, it’s like what are you going to do with the picture that you chased after this person for? But let me tell you, he was riding in a golf cart or something, chased after him, and in just typical loser fan fashion, went to take the picture and actually turned the phone off. I didn’t push the volume button, I pushed the off button, and I was like, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry. I’m such a loser. This is so weird.” I still have the picture. Of course, I did nothing with it because what do you do with those pictures? But it’s really the only celebrity that I’ve ever run down. I just think he’s so funny and so thoughtful, and I think even what he’s done sort of beyond with his painting and just his pontifications about things are really interesting. But yeah, big Jim Carrey fan growing up. Definitely.
Debbie Millman:
You were born and raised in Redding, California. Your dad worked as a commercial fisherman, a car salesman, a crane operator, and was the owner of a construction company. And your mom worked as a dental assistant, a clerk at a shipping company, and for over 30 years has worked the late shift at Jack’s Grill. And so I assume it’s safe to say you inherited their work ethic?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think so, yeah. Both of them just continue to be hard workers. We’re at the point now where I’m like, “Just retire, you guys.” It’s like, “We’re done with the working. You can just live your lives now.” That kind of just like you get up and you do your job every day, and it’s hard sometimes and you don’t like it and it’s not always what you want to do, but it’s oftentimes in service of the things that you do want to do. So that’s sort of makes it all worth it.
Debbie Millman:
You’re the youngest of the family, but also have a fraternal twin sister named Rachel. And I understand when you were a child, you were shy and let Rachel speak for you. And that went back and forth several times, that sort of dynamic changed over the years. But when did you start speaking up for yourself?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, it’s really interesting. We’ve gone through these sort of ebbs and flows. We’re like each other’s yin and yang, our sort of perfect balance. I was pretty gregarious I think growing up. And when we first went to kindergarten, I was the one speaking for her, she was painfully shy. And for that reason my mom split us up. My parents split us up once we got into first grade, pretty much all the way through. In high school we started taking classes together just because you don’t have the same class all the time. But around fifth and sixth grade, I think that’s when puberty started to happen. I feel like I showed up for sixth grade and everything was different, it was so bizarre, and I could never really figure it out really until I figured out that I was gay, and I was like, okay, this all makes a lot more sense. Everything is making a lot more sense now.
I mean I still definitely found so much comfort in sports and being able to kind of just be myself there. But really from sixth grade until college, especially in middle school, I mean, quite literally following Rachel around. And we tell this funny story. At times she would turn around and actually run into me, because I was just right there, and she’s like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m doing. You’re the one that’s supposed to know what you’re doing, so I could follow you.” And High school was a little bit better, I found my feet a little bit more. But I think once I figured out I was gay, it just seemed like the whole world made sense for the first time.
Debbie Millman:
Totally understand. You and Rachel were natural athletes early on and I read that you both figured out how to crawl out of your cribs really young. And one time you did it on your own and your mom came into your bedroom and saw that you were holding Rachel’s hand through the crib bars, and so I assume you’ve always been close.
Megan Rapinoe:
We have, yes. We’ve always been very close. We’ve always kind of tag-teamed everything. It’s kind of one of those things like we can fight, but nobody can say anything towards us. That particular story, I think Rachel had gotten in trouble for something, who knows, we were like two years old. There’s a couple stories like that where one of us would get in trouble and the other one would just basically guilt my mom into feeling so bad about whatever, quote unquote, punishment was coming, whether it was just being in the crib, or I think one time Rachel was about to get her mouth washed out with soap or something, which is just such a weird punishment. And we were basically just like, “You’re the worst mom in the world,” and she was like, “Oh my god, am I?” And we’re like, “I don’t know, but we’re trying to get out of this punishment, and don’t punish one of us.”
So the story of the hand through the crib, my mom came in, Rachel had done something, so she was in a timeout in her crib, and I was laying sort of below the crib with my little hand. I mean, it’s like the cutest thing ever. My little hand up there and we were holding hands, probably chatting or laughing, or commiserating, about the punishment that was being doled out. But yeah, we pulled on the heartstrings of my mom a lot, I think.
Debbie Millman:
Your brother Brian was five years older than you and first introduced you to soccer. And from the time you could first walk, you and Rachel would chase soccer balls around the big oak tree in your backyard. And I read that whenever he did a trick with a soccer ball, all you needed was to watch him once to have it down. Was it just soccer you had a natural ability for or were you just athletically gifted overall?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think athletically gifted overall, both Rachel and I. We played every sport and we played against each other too, I think that was one of the things. In all the sports, but at a very young age and having older siblings, being around his older friends, obviously we’re the youngest, so even my other siblings, we were always sort of forced to kind of level up. But I think even from a young age, when we were five and six, it was very clear running faster and more aggressive and more skilled in all of those ways. So my parents were like, “Whoa, we have something on our hands. We don’t really know what it is.” And we’re from a pretty small town, not really a preeminent sports town or anything, so I think we stood out quite a lot.
Debbie Millman:
When you were five, you announced you want you to cut your hair short like your brother Brian’s and wear only boys clothes from then on, and though you loved your twin, your brother was everything you wanted to be, funny, clever, cheerful, popular, outgoing and good at all sports. And you said your mother took it completely in stride. Was she always that accepting of the directions that you were taking and the ways in which you want to express yourself?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think mostly. I think when we came out in college, both my sister and I came out in college, that was a little bit harder. I think for all parents you kind of have a dream or a sort of vision of what you think your kids’ lives are going to be or what you want what you want for them. You want them to be happy, and I think as a parent you want everything to be as frictionless as possible. And obviously that’s not possible in the world, and the more dynamic you get as a person, the more friction seems to come. But it was interesting and from such a young age, I think she was protective of me as well, because I was called a boy all the time. I didn’t really care and I was kind of like, this is great because then it’s like I’m more my brother and that felt more natural. I don’t think it was even really totally conscious for her of like, “Oh, Megan’s expressing her gender in a different way.” I don’t think she was thinking about that. We didn’t have that kind of language at all back then, but I think it was just like whatever, she’s fine. She’s playing sports, she’s doing her thing, she has a bowl cut, I’ll put a barrette in it sometimes.
But I think she just wasn’t really up for the fight. I think be us being the youngest of so many kids as well, she was probably just tired and she’s like, whatever, who cares? It doesn’t really matter. She probably learned at that point, the more you try to control your kids, the more they’re going to do whatever you’re trying to control them against. So I think she just realized that that’s kind of just who I was and she didn’t really find anything wrong with that, and I think both for my sister and myself, just kind of allowed us to be who we were.
Debbie Millman:
In order to express yourself in the way that you feel most sort of authentic, and also to throw yourself into physical activity, really does require a lot of confidence and a certain sense of being able to rely on yourself. For example, I’m just not physically talented at all and so I tend to be really afraid of things and I hold myself back from any kind of asserting of myself physically. Did you ever experience any fear moving through life through sports?
Megan Rapinoe:
Not a lot of fear. Again, I think having the experience of being a twin and us always being together and playing one-on-one, literally everything, made up games, all the sports, sports that require 20 people. Somehow we distilled it down to a one-on-one situation with everything. And then having older siblings as well. I think that was always a place where I felt the safest. And I think as I got older, that was always a place that felt more safe. I think in my high school years, the only kind of, I don’t know if it’s fear or insecurity, would be like when we started playing with bigger clubs or bigger tournaments or we played on a couple of essentially what are all state teams or something like that, where I was like, “Oh my gosh, these people are so good.” And I was a little bit of a late bloomer even just physically.
And then I was also just never the best in my own household either, with Rachel. Really until my junior year in high school, neither of us were really so much better than the other, but I felt like I was always just a little bit behind her. So maybe just a little insecurity around going to the big city and playing with players that played on the biggest clubs that I had heard about or the best teams or whatever, just kind of finding my feet a little bit. But I think sports mostly was always a place where nothing else that I was feeling uncomfortable by. I sort of had already figured it out. I was like, okay, I can exist here and feel really confident and safe. And I think that’s where a lot of my general confidence came from, is having that ability to really express myself and being sort of allowed to express myself too.
I think coming from a smaller town and playing on not the preeminent club teams that are so focused on winning, and I think at a young age in youth sports, pretty much if you hit puberty quicker or you’re faster or you’re stronger, you’re going to be more dominant. And I think that’s what a lot of the club teams focus on or what a lot of the youth teams focus on, instead of skill and understanding of the game. And so I just didn’t really have that and our team wasn’t that, and so all my coaches were like, “Okay, we see that you have something different, something special. We’re going to cultivate that.” So I feel like I was rewarded for things in the environment that I was in, that maybe in a different environment I wouldn’t have been or would’ve been overlooked or stifled in different ways.
Debbie Millman:
Since there wasn’t a girls team available in your neighborhood, when you were six years old, you and Rachel were invited to play with the under eight boys team. Then your dad started an all girls team, is that right?
Megan Rapinoe:
He did, yeah. It was basically just a mashing up of all the best athletes in the town that we could find. We all played almost every sport, it was basketball or softball or track. Pretty much all of us did all of the sports all the time. We’re like, let’s just put this together and kind of see how it goes.
Debbie Millman:
And you said you were highly emotional at that time with really no idea how to handle your emotions. How did you end up being able to do that as you moved through elementary school?
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh gosh. I did eventually grow out of my tantrums, I think before elementary school, so that was good. I think probably having the balance of being a twin too, you’re just sort of always having to balance with someone else. And I think sports was a really big outlet for a lot of that just self-expression. And I think that was one thing that meant a lot to me and I think still means a lot to me, is my ability and the need internally to express myself and who I am and the things that I care about. So I think sports was a really big outlet for that, but I think it was probably much later until I really learned how to express my emotions or even be able to name them, and I think just over time becoming a little bit more mature. But yeah, I have some epic tantrums from my childhood.
Debbie Millman:
By junior high you said you were the Ma Barker to your sister’s Sweet Muffin?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. Yeah, I do, I actually have a tattoo.
Debbie Millman:
What does that mean?
Megan Rapinoe:
You can see it on the screen.
Debbie Millman:
Oh you do.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Oh my God. Yes.
Megan Rapinoe:
My mom was actually really upset that my dad’s dad, my grandfather Jack, gave me that nickname. And I think Ma Barker was a famous mob boss, serial killer, so I don’t think it was really a compliment at the time at all. My mom was so mad at him for that. But I think it’s come full circle. I’m not a mob boss or killing multiple people, but she probably had to do things different. She probably had to have a bit of ingenuity and a toughness and obviously bucking against the status quo and just being a little bit unruly. I think that’s part of what my personality was as a kid, is just being a little bit of a showman and a little bit unruly. And then of course if I would get upset or embarrassed, then that’s when the tantrums would come. And my sister was much quieter and sort of sweeter on the surface than I was.
Debbie Millman:
As you continue to play soccer, you’ve said that your other sister, your older sister Jenny, predicted that you were going to get a gold medal one day. But as I was reading your memoir, I didn’t get the sense that either of your parents were as motivated as someone say Serena Williams’s dad, in terms of motivating their children to become elite athletes. Do you feel like your family had a real sense that you had what it took to become a gold medalist?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think my parents had a real sense when we got into high school that we could get college paid for, that we could go on a full ride through soccer, so I think that was more so the primary motivation. I mean, obviously we loved it and we were into it and they were like, “Okay, if you guys are into it, we’re into it,” but also this is a lot of work and a lot of money. So we had those frank conversations like, “If you guys aren’t really into this, we’re not going to force you to do it, and we’re also not going to spend all this time and money doing all of this if you aren’t the drivers of this.” And we definitely were. I mean, of course we complained at some points because it was a lot. I mean we got up early most weekends and drove really far and missed a lot, and it was a huge commitment kind of on everyone’s part. But I think especially early on in high school, it was more like, okay, we’re going to really dig into this soccer and they have an opportunity to get their education paid for, once recruiting opened up, I mean, to some of the best colleges in the country. So I think that was a big motivator.
And I think they kind of knew that there was another level of talent there, but we didn’t really have a ton of the comparison because we just were from such a small area. Our club team was kind of a rag tag bunch of misfits put all together. So it wasn’t really until later. I think it was late in my junior year, it was my first youth national team invitation to play with them. But it’s always just like, I mean, who knows. From that team, there’s like two players that made it as far as we did.
I think for female athletes too, just so much was unknown. I mean, we obviously had the World Cup, such a preeminent moment in women’s sports, in 1999, so we were 14 I think at the time. But you weren’t seeing everything on TV all the time like it is now. We weren’t seeing the coverage, we weren’t having those. So many of those moments have been created either during my career or just before, so it was probably a little bit of couldn’t see it, didn’t even know that it existed, but maybe something like that was possible.
Debbie Millman:
When I interviewed Chrissy Evert, she said that despite her father being a tennis coach, all of the children in her family were being trained really just to get full ride scholarships. They weren’t planning on … I mean, they certainly hoped that it was something that could be possible, but the real goal was we’re not going to pay for college.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think that was the focus for my parents too because they couldn’t afford to send us to the types of colleges that we were being recruited by or send us to a four year. We would had maybe gone to junior college or taken out student loans or something. So that was, I think, something that was very motivating for them of like we want to use this talent skill that they have to get them the best education so they can have whatever kind of life they want to have.
Debbie Millman:
You mentioned that you woke up early every weekend morning. I know that your weekend mornings really began at 4:00 AM, when your parents, your sister, you’d all pile into the family minivan for a long drive to Sacramento for soccer practice, for an 8:00 AM game. And you’ve said that while you both had natural ability with instinctive hand-eye coordination and physical fearlessness, your ferocity also had a lot to do with the fact that you played against each other all the time. How did that influence your competitiveness?
Megan Rapinoe:
People always ask if we’re competitive and I think the undertone of what they always are asking is like did you guys fight a lot? Were you competitive? So almost like in the jealousy strain against each other. And we didn’t really have that aspect, but we fought to the death on everything, because it was just the two of us and we loved playing sports, we loved being active, we loved being outside. I think we learned to battle in this way and be competitive and get the most out of ourselves because that was going to be the only way that I could beat Rachel, who for such long stretches beat me at everything because she was better and stronger and she hit puberty a little bit earlier, and so she was physically more dominant. And so it was always this thing like you got to get the best out of yourself to even just beat this person. I think as that translated to team sports, we also knew each other’s level and level of commitment and level of trying and working and the sort of work ethic. So if ever we didn’t feel like the other person was giving their all, we sort of got into it with each other.
And I think that kind of helped set the standard for the team as well, sort of unknowingly. I mean for us it’s just normal to bicker like that. And it was funny because I usually played forward and she played defense, opposite ends of the field, and we’d have these kind of epic screaming matches. But then it was just sort of over when the game was over, and ultimately we just wanted to win and wanted each other to be successful. But I think there’s just the level of honesty that we still have to this day. It’s like no one can really talk to her the way that I talk to her and vice versa, both good and bad. It’s just a little bit more honest. And I think just as a twin, there’s just a level of understanding and intimacy that you have with someone that just doesn’t really exist anywhere in any other relationship that you have.
Debbie Millman:
By 2003, you and Rachel accepted full scholarships to attend the University of Portland, but shortly thereafter you received a call from a coach on the US Women’s National Team offering you a spot to play in the FIFA under 19 Women’s World Championship in Thailand later that year. And you said the experience the year before on the Women’s National Team felt very much like a one-off, but now a new pattern was emerging. You’d been chosen as one of the 11 best players in the country. What did that feel like?
Megan Rapinoe:
I mean, kind of surreal. I think for a long time I kind of had imposter syndrome. I knew that I was good, but then I wasn’t from the best team or from the best club or never won the best tournaments, never was really the best. So I think it took me a little while to settle in to what it even meant to be on that team, even just the training environments and the training habits, and to just feel more comfortable. But I think that experience kind of gave that to me. The coach was amazing and I feel like really valued what I brought to the game, which I feel like is different. I still feel like that, very different.
So I feel like it was strange a little bit, and it was weird to be away from Rachel as well and weird not to be on the same team. But I think it helped me grow as well, sort of forced me to grow and put me in this different environment that really challenged me, because I was uncomfortable and I didn’t know everyone and a lot of other players sort of knew each other and I was this weird kid from Redding, California. They’re like, “Where?” I’m like, “I know.” I don’t really know how to … It’s not LA and it’s not San Francisco, but it is California. I assure you that. And I think while it was very uncomfortable and challenged me a lot, it was sort of one of those pivotal points in my life where I was like, oh, okay, I can do this and be in this level of competition, not just with the US players, but on a global stage as well.
Debbie Millman:
You said that you knew that the way you played was different. How so?
Megan Rapinoe:
I’ve just never been the fastest or the strongest or the fittest. I’ve never really had a physical imposing power over anyone. I’m not going to really just run past anyone. So I think there’s a lack of physical flash that immediately it’s like, okay, well then what are you doing? I think my game is much more predicated on not just understanding where I am in space, but where my teammates are. It’s like I might not be scoring the goals or making the assists, but I might make the pass that makes the pass or finding those little areas that are creative. I think I play a little bit off pace or unexpected, just kind of seeing things that are maybe developing, I see it before anybody else sees it. So the sort of vision and creativity.
And I think for me it’s always about who’s around me and everyone else. I’ve never been that kind of individual player because I can’t really be. I’m not like an exceptional dribbler or super fast where I can get around people or talented in that way. So it’s always been who’s around me and how can we create an advantage or create an overload or put the other people at a disadvantage? I think that’s what I’m always looking for. Teams or players are always going to try to take away the thing that you’re best at or take away something, so I’m always thinking, what are you trying to take away? You’re going to have to put more into one area than another, so I’m going to try to exploit that other area and just try to use my brain a little bit more, my understanding of space to basically get the ball in.
Debbie Millman:
You’re considered one of the greatest soccer players to have played the game. You have played with some of the greatest soccer players to play the game. Your fiance is one of the greatest basketball players to play the game. From your perspective, do you have to think that you’re the best in order to be the best?
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh, good question. I never look at it like that. I don’t think I’m the best. I definitely think that there’s other players that are better than me. I’m certainly better at certain things than maybe anyone, or other players, but I’m always thinking all I can be is me. I think playing on a team for so long, especially a team as successful as the US Women’s National Team where you’re literally playing with the best players in the world all of the time, I think the comparison game is very dangerous, because you’re just never going to be able to be someone else. So it’s always like, how can I bring what I can bring because I know nobody else can bring that. I do think you need to have a level of confidence and even aspirational confidence of like when I go out there, I don’t necessarily think like, oh, I’m the best, but I think when I’m at my best, then I feel confident against anyone or feel like no one can beat me or feel like I’m going to be able to impose myself on the game.
There’s some people who have a legitimate argument that they are the best ever and I think that you should be honest and confident about your assessment. Sometimes athletes want to do the whole, I don’t know, it’s kind of fake humility, and I’m not really into that. I’m like, if you’re the best, you’re the best. I think Sue’s got a legitimate argument that she’s the best point guard of all time and she should say that and not feel shy about that. Or someone like Diana or Maya or LeBron James or Messi, I think Messi’s got a legitimate argument he’s the best male soccer player of all time. But I actually legitimately don’t think I am. I think I’m very good and have my place among the very best, but I sort of look at it like I just want to be my best and always bring what I know that nobody else has that I have to try to influence the game that way.
Debbie Millman:
When you first joined the United States Women’s National Team, you said that if anything could bring you down to size, it was walking into the national team locker room as the youngest and least experienced player. How do you get over being intimidated?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think a little bit of what I was just saying, of having the appropriate level of respect and admiration for all the greats that you’re playing with. I mean obviously when I first came into the team, Kristine Lilly was still there, obviously Abby was playing, Mia and Julie and Brandy had just retired, Kate Markgraf was still playing. So I’m clearly not at their level at this point, but I think also being like, well, I have something different. I have something that is also special, and so trying to focus on the areas of my game that are special and that could bring something different, always learning, always trying to get better, but understanding that I could never be those players. And so being intimidated or feeling less confident because I’m not those players didn’t seem that useful.
And it took a little bit of time because oftentimes you are being compared to those players. Certain players make a roster and other players don’t, or some players start and other players don’t. But I feel like even the times when I hadn’t been starting, it was more just like, how can I continue? The only thing that’s going to get me on the field is me playing my game. It’s not going to be replicating someone else’s game better than they can actually do it. So just trying to keep that in mind that everybody brings something special and the thing that makes teams special, I feel like, is when everyone gets to be their unique, individual self with the team in mind. And that’s I think when you get the best out of everyone and then collectively as a team, I think that’s when you get something really special.
Debbie Millman:
In October 2006, almost a year to the day before the 2007 FIFA World Cup was scheduled to take place, you tore your ACL. And you did your best to recover, but came back too soon and tore it again, and that resulted in you missing both the World Cup and the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Did you worry that your soccer career was over at that point?
Megan Rapinoe:
Maybe a little bit. My mom definitely worried. She even said that. I was like, “That’s not the kind of energy that I need, mom.” We need full-blown, unfettered confidence right now.
Debbie Millman:
Right. Lie to me if you have to.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. I’m like, “I don’t need your anxiety coming out here.” I never really felt like that. I mean, even after the second ACL tear happened in quick succession after the first one, I never really felt that. I never got that sense from my physical body either. I know that I had two knee injuries in a row, but it wasn’t like I had crazy cartilage damage or arthritis or anything. I never got that sense medically from the doctor or from the sort of larger team around. And then I think probably just some young, blind confidence and arrogance and dreamer in me. It just never felt like it was over, it just felt like I needed to take a little time and make sure that I got it right.
I mean, certainly after the first one, I think I walked myself into a giant dose of humility because I was like, “Oh, I’m going to come back so quick and I’m awesome because I’m 21 and I can do everything.” That backfired immediately, almost immediately. I think that kind of … Actually, I’m thankful for that because I feel like it set me up for the rest of my career in just understanding your body, understanding injuries, understanding when to push and when not to push, and ultimately your body’s going to tell you the answers. You can’t really force anything and you need to treat your body with that respect as well. I think oftentimes you just want to push, push, push, but that’s not really how your physical body works.
Debbie Millman:
I want to read a paragraph from your memoir. You talked a little bit about being able to, I don’t want to say magically, but there’s a sense that you have about where people are on the field. And in the World Cup in 2011 in Germany, you had one of the greatest plays of your career, and I’d like to read a paragraph from your memoir when you’re down two to one to Brazil, because I think it really does capture some of the way in which you approach playing. You cool with that?
Megan Rapinoe:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
“In the 122nd minute I was thinking, ‘We’re fucked.’ But I can hold two thoughts in my head at one time, and while thinking we’re fucked because we’re in the dying minutes of the game, the ball is way down on our end and the Brazilians are trying to run down the clock with their antics. I’m also seeing Ali Krieger dribbling up the sideline, passing the ball to the middle to Carli, and then Carli dribbling for what seems like an eternity. And I’m like, ‘Just fucking pass the ball to me,’ because I’m open and I’m coming up on the left and she dribbles across the field, finally plays it. I take one touch. I don’t even really look up, but I’m like, ‘Bitch, you’d better be there. Somebody has to be there.’ And it was literally a Hail Mary pass. This was our last chance. The ref should have already blown the whistle, and I just bombed it up the field where the ball found Abby, who headed it in.’Oh my God,’ she screamed. ‘Oh my God, best cross of your life.’ It was an epic sports moment, extremely dramatic. I imagine people back home watching, sitting in bars, jumping up to celebrate When the whistle blew. We were tied two-two and the game went to a penalty shootout, which we won five-three. That clip of my cross to Abby and her stupendous header into the goal went what we didn’t yet know to call viral.”
One of the great moments in sports history, brought to you by Design Matters. Is there a way to describe what that felt like? You kicked the ball not knowing where you were kicking it, but knowing full well, I think, where it was going. Talk about how that felt.
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh gosh. It was just the craziest moment. I think there was so much pressure and just so much going through my head. I mean, it’s like you have the larger sort of context that this would be I think the earliest exit of any team in US history, going out in the quarterfinals, so that’s obviously terrible. You never want to be that team. I’m like, oh my God, this is nuts. It’s already way into overtime. We’ve already gone into overtime. The game was crazy too. We had got a red card early in the game, so we were playing down. It’s gone into extra time. I think in the absence of some of the time-wasting from Brazil, the game would’ve already been called, but I think the ref was feeling like that wasn’t fair, which I’m not even sure refs are supposed to do, but she did. It felt like an eternity.
I think, oftentimes in those moments, I mean the extra time, as we’ve seen in this recent men’s World Cup, it’s very just arbitrary and we don’t really know, but they usually give momentum the advantage. So we were sort of coming up the field, everything felt like in eternity. I mean, Abby and I had such a great on field connection also. I mean, she was so dominant in the air and had such amazing timing and just was always there, and it felt like we just kind of had that connection. And I don’t even know, I’m just going to … I was far away too, so it was just like, I just have to boot this far and give someone a chance. Obviously it was Abby in there, and as the best goalscorer of all time in US history and just knowing how dominant she was, it was just like just get something in there. I mean, honestly, it was like I thought we were probably going to lose. You’re going to try obviously and do your best to have this crazy moment happen, this Hail Mary. But it’s just that, it’s just a Hail Mary, just a hope and a prayer.
And I can’t really explain what it felt like in the moment just seeing it go. I feel like I get emotional now, it was just so crazy. I still think to this day, it’s one of the greatest single sports moments in history, just all the drama, it had everything. It was just like a really difficult header from Abby as well. It wasn’t just like everyone fell over and she had this free header. And just pure elation, a little bit of relief as well. I think there’s a relief that happens because we always have so much pressure. The expectation is always to win and do all of the things, so there’s some relief, but it was just this perfect sports moment that you kind of dream about, a buzzer beater type situation. It was honestly just unbelievable. And I think the energy in the arena, in the stadium that day, was sort of interesting. I think again, the antics of Brazil kind of turned the tide against them, and so it just was this swell and that moment where you get to really pop your top off, and I feel like everyone just let the cannons go. It was just an incredible moment that honestly changed the course of women’s soccer history forever, I think globally.
Debbie Millman:
In the time after the post World Cup media frenzy and in the lead up to the London 2012 Olympics, you decided it was time to come out and you scheduled an interview with Out Magazine. What made you decide that that particular moment between the World Cup and the Olympics was the right time?
Megan Rapinoe:
It just started to feel awkward that I wasn’t out. That started to feel very uncomfortable for me because I was out in my normal life. And I think when I started on the national team, we just weren’t really that popular. If I was coming on the national team now, I’d probably already be out. The team’s so big, there’s just so much media around the team and social media and everything. We didn’t have any of that. So it’s kind of like you didn’t really live two different, two separate lives. There wasn’t really like a public and a private because … I mean, in a way there was, obviously we played a public sport, but it just wasn’t that popular. It wasn’t like it is now.
But it did start to feel … I mean, definitely after the World Cup. I remember on the plane ride home sitting with one of my best friends, Lori Lindsey, and then my agent Dan was close next to us on the plane. It was just kind of like, why am I not? This just seems weird. This is getting a little bit awkward. I think there was a couple times where maybe I used a more bland pronoun or something, or just sort of omitted, and I was like, this feels weird, this isn’t … And I was like very gay and visually I think I looked very gay, whatever that means, but I think at the time it was like, oh, this person is clearly gay. And it was also during that time, I think Prop 8 in California was like 2008 or 9, so that was happening, that was progressing through the courts, obviously up until 2015, which I think that was the Supreme Court decision. So it just was sort of in that time.
I don’t think I was really thinking explicitly like this at the time, but looking back and then just knowing myself now, I think I definitely do try to leverage the biggest moments for the things that I find to be very important or worth leveraging. I sort of take the opposite approach of most athletes of in the biggest moments, let’s try to keep everything calm and not bring more. But I sort of like to do the opposite, and I think there was an activist piece to it. I didn’t have the stereotypical struggle internally or with my family. I didn’t have that story. I thought that my story would be important. And I think also because I hadn’t personally struggled, it just felt more like a responsibility, like this wouldn’t be a huge undertaking for me. I thought it would be a really positive thing for myself and for other people. And it’s been extremely positive. I mean, I think still, to this day, people come up to me and reference that moment or just reference being out the way that I have as something really important to their life. So I think it just kind of made sense and it really kind of came down to this feels awkward to not be out. It feels like more work to not be out than just to be who I am authentically.
Debbie Millman:
One of the things that I was going to ask you was looking at the sort of history of your major accomplishments on the field and then your sort of major political statements, they seem very close in the timeline. Because you and the team won the gold at the Olympics in 2012, you went on to win the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup, and not content with resting on those achievements, in 2016, you knelt during the national anthem at an international match in solidarity with NFL player Colin Kaepernick. And you said that kneeling felt more like an imperative and a perfectly logical response to what felt like a state of emergency than a choice. And I’m wondering, in what way did that feel like a state of emergency to you at that moment in time?
Megan Rapinoe:
I just think where we were at as a country, those last maybe three, four years before 2016, the murder of Trayvon Martin, NBA players wearing hoodies, and you started to see a little bit more public political activism. Michael Brown in Ferguson 2014, obviously huge protests on the ground in Ferguson, but it was more of a national story in every publication, in all the newspapers. It was difficult to avoid. And obviously when you don’t avoid it and read what’s happening and read, not just about the specific murders of these young Black men, but just historically, you start to get into the data and police brutality. I mean, just the history of our country, it’s obviously undeniable.
Leading into 2016, the WNBA players had started to protest. The Minnesota Lynx were the first team, I believe there was a murder in Minnesota that they were protesting. They wore shirts, they had their security police walk out on them in the building. I think there was four or five really high profile murders that summer. And then sort of culminating in America’s biggest sport, which is football with one of their biggest players in the most important position, Colin Kaepernick, as a quarterback speaking out. And I mean, I just still remember so vividly his interview in front of his locker, which I feel like you could take and put in any time period at any time, I mean, it still resonates perfectly today. And I just remember watching that and just thinking, having the experience of coming out and asking people to, “I don’t need you to be gay. I just need you to understand that I’m gay and that I deserve my rights.” So the idea of allyship and understanding that I am asking people to do the same thing for me that I felt was necessary of me or that could help. And so it just seemed like a no-brainer.
It felt like something that was about to sweep through all of sports. It felt like one of those moments that massive change should happen and could happen. And it just felt, I think, like a personal moment of I just couldn’t really reconcile not doing anything. I mean, how could I understand what was happening and seeing what had happened, again, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown and all these murders the three, four years prior, and then culminating in this moment where Colin actually gave us really for the first time a mechanism to protest against the systemic police brutality and white supremacy that really our country was founded on. So it gave us a real clear mechanism with the kneeling on something that you could do and then sort of talking points or a way that you could verbally support on top of that.
And I mean, I still believe to this day, if one white quarterback would’ve knelt with Colin, or even just one white high profile NFL player would’ve done that, I mean, I think we would have much more sweeping change, but no one did. I think Eric Reid was really one of the only other ones consistently, and there was a few other Black players, but very few, if any, white players that did that. And very few, if any, white players in almost all other sports that did that. And I think the different sports leagues are different. I think the NBA didn’t have a lot of kneeling, but it’s very clear what the NBA stands for and what those players are about and what they’ll protest for. And still to this day, it feels like a complete no-brainer to me. I would do it all over again in the exact same way that I did it.
Obviously, I didn’t know everything going in. I think I was very naive in a lot of ways, but I think very quickly I learned that the outrage was the game that was being played by white America and by white supremacy and by stakeholders, whether it be US soccer and the management at US soccer, or the government, or media, whether it’s the ESPNs or the Foxes of the world or CNNs or MSNBCs, is sort of … And I think the online outrage also. Very quick, I was like, oh, okay. That’s the whole game. We’re not talking about police brutality because we don’t want to talk about this massive problem in our country. We want to talk about whatever, military, or the flag, or lack of patriotism, whatever that means.
Debbie Millman:
Well, you were really punished shortly after you knelt. US Soccer released a statement saying it expected players to stand for the anthem. Your coach told you she wasn’t starting you in a game with Atlanta a few weeks later. She told you not to dress for two national team games guaranteeing you wouldn’t set foot on the field. And with the exception of a training camp you attended in November, you wouldn’t be invited to train with the team again that winter or the following spring. And then in early 2017, the US Soccer Federation formally banned players from kneeling during the anthem. How did you manage through this time not playing and being punished in such a public and vindictive way?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, it was difficult. It was very difficult. I mean, I have an amazing group of people around me, from my family who didn’t always share my views, certainly, but always supported me. Obviously my partner, Sue, Dan, my agent, Jessica, the one that I work with. It took a team of people close to me. And then also just keeping myself educated. I mean, I think ultimately I knew that I was doing the right thing, so I never felt like, “Ah, fuck. I made a mistake and now I can’t really take it back.” I always felt like US Soccer looked horrible from the second they put out that statement. And they did, they looked absolutely terrible. And every move they made from then on, they looked terrible, and continued to look terrible until again, a hand was forced in 2020 with some apology that also looked pretty terrible. And people were like, really? Is this you?
But I think for me personally, Sue’s calm head kept me from firing off a number of irrational, sort of wild emails that I probably would’ve regretted. I never really got into the Twitter outrage. Again, I think I learned very early on, okay, that’s the point of all of this, is just to incite outrage and not really talk about what we’re talking about. And I think there was the sort of reality that my season was coming up for the NWSL, the league that we play in, so by March and April I would be back playing. And I always just felt like if I just get back to a level that I know that I can, then that will be a different conversation than what we’re in now.
Because also, simultaneously what was happening, I had come off an ACL injury the year before, and I made the Olympic roster and I played in the Olympics, but I really was not really my full self. And so that was part of the fake reason, really, or the reason given, was that your performance isn’t such the level that we need on the national team. I’m like, “Well, yeah. No shit, I just got back like two minutes ago.” And I need a place to play in order for my performance to be where you need it to be. I agree, my performance is not there. It’s just the whole mechanism for being able to play and get minutes was taken away, so while that was really frustrating, I think also I did know that the season was coming up. I was fully supported by my club team and fully supported by my coach at the time, Laura Harvey, and Bill Predmore and Teresa Predmore, the owner of our club here in Seattle at the time, I felt fully supported there. It was just like, I just need to get back on the field to do what I’m doing and to play my sport, because I feel like it’ll be undeniable then. And then what are you going to do? And as the saying goes, they fucked around and found out.
Debbie Millman:
By 2019 you helped the US win the 2019 FIFA Women’s World Cup again. But at the time we were approaching an election year, the news was dominated by stories of Black Americans dying in police custody. You stated publicly that if you won the World Cup, you would not visit the White House because of Trump’s policies and his racism. And Trump responded on Twitter, speaking of Twitter, and said, “I’m a big fan of the US team and women’s soccer, but Megan should first win before she speaks. Finish the job.” Were you surprised that he responded and called you out in the way that he did?
Megan Rapinoe:
I mean, yes, because you’re the President of the United States, you should be working on other stuff in the country and policy and what your actual job is, as opposed to responding to an athlete. But then again, no, because whether it was Hillary or AOC or the squad, or really just any woman who had the audacity to go against him, he sort of put his sights on. So in a way, no, he always tries to insert himself into whatever the cultural moment is at the time. I’m sure he felt left out of the World Cup because it was such an amazing moment, as it always is. And obviously, I mean, the man loves an American flag, so it’s like he didn’t want to miss out on this incredible moment of patriotism. So I was surprised, because I was like, this is just absurd.
I never want to not be shocked and surprised by that level of absurdity from that high of an office in the country. But at the same time, it was very much par for the course. I thought it was obviously extremely tacky and just unacceptable and very unpatriotic to sort of heap that pressure onto an individual player, but onto a team in a moment where they’re trying to do something really special and trying to achieve a dream that they’ve worked so hard for. He obviously didn’t know which team he was messing with because we thrive under pressure and sort of like the more pressure, the better. And I think just for me personally, I never felt unsafe. I never felt any of those things, from a physical or emotional online perspective at all.
So I think the team, and myself, was able to take it on as more like a ridiculous joke, like one more thing that this crazy thing is happening, and thanks for more eyeballs, because undoubtedly I think it raised the profile of the entire team and what we were doing, and our performances on the field sort of showed that. So it was absurd in all ways, but again, I feel like those big moments I really do enjoy. And all the antics around, I mean, we sued our federation two months before going to the World Cup anyways, so we were already locked in as a team and sort of prepared for anything. But yeah, that was a funny bus moment when everybody realized that that happened.
Debbie Millman:
After winning the world title you posted, “The group is strong, resilient. We have pink hair and purple hair, tattoos and dreadlocks. We have white girls, Black girls, and what’s in between. We have straight girls and gay girls.” And I kind of love that in this particular case, history is written by the victors.
Megan Rapinoe:
Very much so. Yeah, very much so.
Debbie Millman:
You and your teammates fought for years for pay parity with the men’s team, and this seemed like a no-brainer as the winning women’s team was getting paid less than the losing men’s team. And this year back in May, at long last, you’ve achieved that goal. I know that the case said for now there will be pay equity. Do you feel like that will be the way it is for the future?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, I think that that’s the sort of baseline now. I think something we always want to keep in mind is equality or equity doesn’t always have to mean the exact same. And I think oftentimes with women’s sports, it’s like this trap we get into of comparing ourselves to the men, and if we could just do all the same things, then we’ll be all the same kinds of successful, which will never happen. I think as any marginalized person knows, that’s the sort of twice as good. You can do everything the same and they’re still not going to let you in. So I think always keeping in mind what’s different about our game? What different needs do we have that maybe the men’s team doesn’t have? It’s more so about the equal investment, the equal care really.
I think so much, I mean, maybe this is a soft topic, but the actual care that each individual in the federation and at the board level and at the executive level has for the team matters. I mean, for so long we could just tell they don’t care. They don’t really want to be here. Even when they would come to the final, it just felt begrudging, whereas if the men did well in a friendly, it was like the world was made of gold. And I think that’s really important. I think that sends a signal to the players and sends a signal to the staff under the management, and everybody else working in the federation where it’s branding and marketing. So I think the level investment, the level in care, the pots of money available to each team to be able to decide how they want that distributed, what works best, how we want to invest that as a staff or a coaching staff or a support staff, I think is really important.
So I think this agreement and settlement really, this lawsuit is really sort of the baseline of where we can go, and I think from here, I mean, the sky’s the limit. Obviously our league, we’re entering into our, I think 11th year in the NWSL. That’s a huge area that needs to grow as soccer continues to grow massively in the world and in our country, obviously leading into 2026, which will be a home men’s World Cup, which will undoubtedly raise the profile of soccer across the board, from youth soccer to the MLS, to the NWSL, the national teams alike. I think this is just a good starting point moving forward to think how can we grow both teams in the way that is uniquely situated to them and not just always saying, “Okay, well the men stayed at this Hilton, so we have to stay at that Hilton.” That might not work for us. Maybe they like to be more secluded or like to be more in the city, and vice versa. For us, I think it’s just more about understanding each team deserves the same opportunity and investment and care as each other, and then we can move on from there.
Debbie Millman:
I just have a few more questions for you today. You’re engaged to Sue Bird. Congratulations.
Megan Rapinoe:
Thank you.
Debbie Millman:
Sue, for our non-sports oriented listeners, is a professional athlete with the Women’s Basketball Association, winner of four Olympic gold medals of her own. You’ve recently co-founded a production company that centers stories of revolutionaries who move culture forward. You’ve named the company A Touch More, which is an extension of the name of your podcast. Is there a backstory to the name A Touch More?
Megan Rapinoe:
There is. It’s actually a pandemic creation. Early in the pandemic, we decided to do an Instagram Live, as most people did. But it was just kind of a fun, light show. It was obviously just the two of us with Instagram Live right in front of you. Sue was the producer on the show, so we had all kinds of games and we’d bring guests on and we had a blast. But there was one point during, this must have been a few months into the pandemic, where Sue had asked basically if she had gained weight or something through the pandemic. And it’s like, of course, we’re just sitting in the house. We’re not working out. We’re not doing anything. So I think I had said, “I mean, maybe like a touch more, but I don’t … I mean, no, not really.” And she was like, “All I heard was a touch more.” I was like, “Okay.”
So we called our show A Touch More, which is just a little nod to also us opening ourselves up in a way that we hadn’t. I mean, it was admittedly a little bit alcohol fueled during the early part of the pandemic, and a little looser than we are, at least than we have been in normal interviews. So it was kind of a touch more than you normally get from us. People ask us to recreate that all the time. I was like, “You guys, I can’t be drunk like three days a week doing a podcast. This is not going to work.” Maybe some sort of iteration, maybe it’ll be when we’re both into retirement. But other than that, I think we’ll probably leave a touch more just for the title.
Debbie Millman:
You debuted a four-part audio documentary for 30 For 30 titled Pink Card, which chronicles women in Iran and their fight for the right to watch soccer. What other kinds of stories are you hoping to tell?
Megan Rapinoe:
A lot of stories like that, of what it takes to even be successful as a woman just in general at times, but certainly as a female athlete. We always have to just move a little bit differently. That you’re really good and so then you can just go and play professionally is never the whole story. We saw that obviously with Brittney Griner being wrongfully detained overseas, and thank God being brought home, we see that with other players playing overseas, we see that with players starting their own businesses during their careers. So really interested in stories that just go beyond what sports are and sort of go into a little bit more about what we have to do to even be successful and what makes us successful. Certainly in marginalized communities, the same thing, doesn’t even have to specifically be in sports, but the myriad of different inspirational and creative and frankly genius ways that marginalized people have to move just in order to be successful. Getting more eyes on those stories and starting to broaden the cultural understanding, I guess, of what it means to move in the world when you don’t look a certain way.
Debbie Millman:
You are in your final years of playing professional soccer. You initially thought about retiring, but have stated you feel a renewed joy and passion for the game, which is wonderful news, with an eye toward the 2023 World Cup in Australia and New Zealand. What do you want your relationship to the sport to be moving forward?
Megan Rapinoe:
I do feel like my relationship has changed a lot. I think for so long it was just fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting, both on the field and off. Whether that was gay rights or pay equity or the fight with our federation or racial equality, so many things that this team fights for. Sometimes it’s hard to change that mindset. You’re used to having your gloves up all the time. So I think I’m approaching this next year just trying to enjoy it a lot more and, not really bask in the accomplishments, but really enjoy. The team is in such an amazing place. I mean, obviously the pay equity part was amazing. I mean, my paychecks will be a lot bigger, which I’ll just welcome that. That’s totally great.
But I think too, just trying to continue to pay it forward to the next generation and to use all the knowledge and experience that I have on and off the field to give to them in the most authentic way that I can. I don’t want to be like, “Hey kids, when I was this old …” That never really seems to work. But hopefully just through my experience and continuing to enjoy the game as much as possible, knowing that this will likely be last year, one of the last years, just trying to really enjoy every moment and realize what a special opportunity that I have to be playing for as long as I have, to see the game change in so many ways year after year after year, and undoubtedly this World Cup will be the best one yet, as all of them seem to be.
Debbie Millman:
I am just so grateful for everything that you’ve done for women’s sports. I think you very much picked up the baton from Billy Jean King and have really changed the world for so many people. Thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.
Megan Rapinoe:
Thank you so much for having me.
Debbie Millman:
If you want to know more about Megan Rapinoe, a good place to start is her memoir One Life. You can also see more about the business she now has with her fiance, Sue Bird, at ATouchMore.com. This is the 18th year we’ve been podcasting Design Matters and I’d like to thank you for listening, and remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.